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Hi Bill,

I am a member of a Presbyterian Church of the Reformed tradition. I have not walked away from church, but do reason that in many ways an understanding of Biblical theology has led me to accept that Reformed theology usually provides greater understanding than does evangelical, for example. I would prefer not to call myself evangelical, although there is overlap between Reformed and evangelical views.

My Reformed leanings can be seen in my writings on my blogs, thekingpin68 and satire and theology.

Russ:)

Hey Russ,

Thanks for your thoughts. As I've shared in the "focus" rhythmn, we are learning that before He has called us to any organization, activity, affiliation, or theological persuasion, Christ has called us to Himself. He desires to be the nexus of our life, our first passionate pursuit, and the enduring magnificent obsession of our human experience.

Theology is a human construct, therefore every theology is subject to error. It's imperative that intimacy with Christ be our first and enduring pursuit so that our theology is informed and shaped by the living Christ and not just the ideologies of men.

Great post.

Theology informed and shaped primarily by an intimate and personal relationship with Christ while in community with other Christ followers.

vs.

Theology and community forming my personal and intimate relationship with Christ.

Religion, traditions, programs, parents, relatives, neighbors, pastors, preachers, teachers, and evangelists all can, if they are the focus, overshadow and cloud our view of God, our understanding of his plan. Jesus is the key to the right view of God.

peace in Christ,
brad

Hey Brad,

Awesome thoughts bro. Thanks much for stopping by, reading, and sharing.

Theology is a human construct, therefore every theology is subject to error. It's imperative that intimacy with Christ be our first and enduring pursuit so that our theology is informed and shaped by the living Christ and not just the ideologies of men.

Bill,

There is theological error because there is sin and God has not yet purged us of all sin. We are close to Christ as our theology concerning Christ is correct and as we are guided by the Holy Spirit. We cannot properly focus on Christ without a proper theological understanding. Now this theology may be more practical than systematic in the beginning but a proper understanding of Biblical theology is important or else we risk having an understanding of Christ which is heavily influenced by the ideologies of persons which will be subject to error.

Theology is not just a human construct, but was revealed through the teaching of Old Testament writers, Christ and his New Testament writers.

Cheers,

Russ

Bill & Russ,

I think we are more on the same page than it may appear by our comments. Theology can be a loaded word and mean different things to different people. Errors in our understanding of the nature of God is most definitely the result of sin. Sin in this world, sin in me, blocks my view of God. It separates me from God. Not being close to God through Christ, not reading His words allows misconceptions to pile up in me.

"We are close to Christ as our theology concerning Christ is correct and as we are guided by the Holy Spirit."

This is true but I think equally true is that the closer we get to Christ the more accurate our theology, our understanding of God will be.

As our personal relationship with Jesus grows our insight into the Word of God grows. Kinda like human relationships. The more time we spend with another person, the closer we get, and the more we know about that person. The more time we spend with Jesus the more we know Him, and the more we know God. It goes hand in hand: relationship & knowledge. Both our heart and mind are involved.

One more thought. My experience is that a person can read the Word of God, study it, read and study books about the Bible, ascribe to a theology, but never know Christ. Never have a deep relationship with their Creator. On the other hand I would contend that if you have the relationship with Christ based on the Word of God, a theology, understanding or knowledge of the Creator, will no doubt follow. To know Christ is to know God.

Anyway enjoying the conversation.

peace in Christ,
brad

Again, great thoughts Brad! I'm with you both. Russ is right on with his emphasizing the importance of correct Biblical doctrine. You're right on with your emphasis on intimacy with the living Christ shaping our theology.

I do disagree with Russ' statement about theology not being a human construct. I believe it certainly is. Theology is simply the "study of God." Because, as Russ correctly said, we have all been affected by the fall, our "study of God" is affected by the effects of the fall. That's precisely why a pursuit of God on the heart level, not just a head level, is so essential to purity of our "study of God."

Good conversation guys. Thanks!

Bill,

'I do disagree with Russ' statement about theology not being a human construct. I believe it certainly is. Theology is simply the "study of God." '

No, theology is also studying the philosophy of God. This can be seen in the disciplines of Biblical theology, systematic and philosophical theology, and philosophy of religion. The theology/ philosophy of God, was revealed by the prophets, Christ and the apostles. Therefore theology is certainly not just a human construct. Bill, without understanding that theology is revealed by God to persons in Scripture, and understanding this theology being led by God, the view of Christ can largely be a human construct.

This is a reason why there are so many religious groups that claim to known Christ (Eastern Religion, LDS, and others) and yet do not understand or know who the Biblical Jesus is.

I stated:

Theology is not just a human construct, but was revealed through the teaching of Old Testament writers, Christ and his New Testament writers.

Biblical theology is God working through human means, and so the theology is both divine and human.

'This is true but I think equally true is that the closer we get to Christ the more accurate our theology, our understanding of God will be'

Yes, we start with being led by the Holy Spirit and learning Biblical theology and it is possible to construct proper systematic and philosophical theology in this process.

'One more thought. My experience is that a person can read the Word of God, study it, read and study books about the Bible, ascribe to a theology, but never know Christ. Never have a deep relationship with their Creator.'

That is true, as the Holy Spirit must guide. There must be a transformation of a person, not simply an intellectual acceptance of doctrines.

Thanks,

We will have to agree to agree, and agree to disagree.

Russ:)


Correction:

claim to know.

Russ,

Good stuff bro. Thanks for creating a good conversation.

:-)

bill

I'm reminded of the Pharisees. Brilliant theologians...but far from the heart of God. Uneducated, bumbling fishermen and tax collectors...Close to the heart of God (after Pentecost),Christ's beloved with whom he entrusted the church.

And then there was Paul too, regenerated and educated, the scholar.:)

Thanks, Bill.

Yep, and Paul's testimony after his heart was captured:

I was circumcised when I was eight days old. I am a pure-blooded citizen of Israel and a member of the tribe of Benjamin—a real Hebrew if there ever was one! I was a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law. I was so zealous that I harshly persecuted the church.

And as for righteousness, I obeyed the law without fault.

I once thought these things were valuable, but now I consider them worthless because of what Christ has done. Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the infinite value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I could gain Christ and become one with him.

I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ. For God’s way of making us right with himself depends on faith. I want to know Christ and experience the mighty power that raised him from the dead. I want to suffer with him, sharing in his death, so that one way or another I will experience the resurrection from the dead!

:-)
cheers!

'And as for righteousness, I obeyed the law without fault.

I once thought these things were valuable, but now I consider them worthless because of what Christ has done.'

Agreed, good point. And the Lord used Paul and his abilities to teach corrective theology in contrast to the teaching of the Jewish leaders.

Romans for example, is a cornerstone of Christian theology.

Thanks, Bill.

Russ:)

With you on that bro! Romans covers the essentials of creation, the fall, and redemption from beginning to end.

Hi guys.
I'm coming in late on this discussion but it all sounds interesting. We always have to be careful we don't categorize people. Evangelicals, Reformed, Pentecostal are all ok but being a Christian is the most important thing. Ah yes but I’m Pentecostal, Reformed, or Evangelical. I think we all are a bit of this or that in some way, it’s just a matter of the percentages. I would like to be all those things in Christ.
Faster Pastor, (Russell.) (From the land down under)

Hey Russell!

Great to have you around bro. Thanks for stopping by. Very good perspective my friend. One of the great toxins is our way of separating ourselves into camps who waste our time (and Kingdom time) trying to prove ourselves right and everyone else wrong. We are truly one in Christ and should live as such amongst ourselves and in view of the world.

Hope you'll come around often.
bill

I sometimes jokingly call myself a reformed emergent southern baptist evangelical calvinist with a missional heart.

This is a great site. Keep up the good work.

Grace and Peace.

Tony

Hi, Bill.

Cool button design on the top right of the page!

The Bible says, 'Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together.' God is a God of relationships, and Jesus instituted the Church to be the family of God. In Heaven, we will all live and work together in perfect relationship with one another. Therefore, He desires us to serve Him as a Church, the body of Christ, rather than as loners.

Nevertheless, because of sin, the Church on earth is imperfect. No relationship or institution or organization on earth is perfect, because no person is perfect.

When I was saved, I left the Lutheran church I grew up in, to find a church that was more like the church in Acts.

Years later, I left an Evangelical Lutheran Charismatic church when they tried to aggressively force me to speak in tongues in front of the entire congregation. After I left, a group from the church confronted the Pastor about his drinking from the Communion supply all day. Representatives from the head bishops of the ELCA were called in to confront the Pastor. The church split as a result.

About a year ago, I left a Baptist church when a spirit of dictatorial, cult-like control took over the church. A newly elected Elder (who had only been saved about a year) commanded me not to witness to some Jehovah's Witnesses that had come to my house (to which I had agreed to a 2nd meeting with the JWs, because I wanted to witness to them), and the Elder told me that, if I disobeyed his command, I was in sin. The Pastor backed the elder, and asked if the two of them could come to my house to 'correct' my disobedience to the elder. After I left the church, several members called me and asked me questions, because they were seeing the same problem I saw. The church then voted on Elder-led rule, and the church split. Now one half of the church is trying to sue the other half.

I have not been back to a church since. However, I do plan to visit churches and start going again.

The Christian needs to meet with other Christians, similar to the way a bodybuilder needs to go to a gym. The bodybuilder can work out solely on his own, but will not be nearly as successful. He needs the motivation and encouragement of others.

In recent years, cell churches have become more popular. In persecuted countries (and in Scripture), house churches are sometimes necessary.

Hey Jeff!

Great to have you bro. Thanks for stopping by and leaving your thoughts. Good thoughts! I'm sorry to hear of all the dysfunction you've experienced in church...but not at all surprised.

You're spot on with the necessity of believers being in community together. But I also understand that church as we know it and practice it today didn't begin to emerge until about the fourth century when Constantine officiated the adulterous marriage of church and empire. When scripture encourages us to "not forsake the assembling of ourselves together" the assembling spoken of had nothing to do with going to a special building to listen to trained orators and observe choreographed presentations. It had everything to do with shared lives, shared meals, shared resources, and a shared passion for participating with Christ in his redemptive mission to the world.

If you haven't already read it, you may want to check out Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola. You can find it in the bookstore of my "resources" page.

May you find in Christ everything that you've found lacking in the church my friend.

Oh, and that Baptist church I left? After I left, I found out that they had announced, in front of the entire congregation that no one was to have any contact with me. I was to be treated as cast out to Satan. They also claimed that I had requested that no one contact me, which was completely untrue.

One of my brothers, as well as my sister, told me that they have been to churches that have done exactly the same thing to them. The leadership of the churches ordered the entire congregation to have no more contact with them. Both of them have attended non-denominational churches (Charismatic), and neither of them has ever belonged to a Baptist church. So this kind of thing is apparently not limited to any single denomination.

And, after I left that Baptist church, the Pastor quit, and now teaches piano lessons to kids. The Elder (who has no theological training; he has a PhD in Natural Resource and Agricultural Politics, and largely deals with writing papers about farm animals) took over as Pastor of the church, and half of the church (the half that is suing the other half) meets across the street in the Town Hall.

Bill,

Thanks for your reply to my comment.

I think I have heard of that book, and I may check it out. Sounds interesting.

The Catholic church became extremely corrupted in the Middle Ages, and was just as much a powerful political body as it was a religious body. Even today, the Vatican holds much power.

However, even when Jesus was on Earth, He attended the Jewish temple on the Sabbath. So, pre-Christian believers (Jews) were meeting together in the Jewish temple long before Constantine or the Catholic church.

However, I personally call myself a "Christian" rather than limit myself to any particular denomination. Neither do I limit myself to any doctrinal statement of any denomination. I do see the historical importance of creating creeds and doctrines, however, which helped, in part, to protect against false doctrines coming in, and also helped unify the beliefs of the community. Non-denominational and Charismatic churches which have no official statement of belief are more prone to false doctrines creeping in.

But where there is human leadership and human organization, there will always be problems.

May you find in Christ everything that you've found lacking in the church my friend.

Thank you very much, Bill.

Hey Jeff,

Again, you're spot on about the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem continuing their temple attendance after they followed Christ. But the Gentile believers were not. The early believers met from house to house. Special "services" in special buildings, led by a special priesthood began with Constantine.

If you do decide to read Pagan Christianity, you'll likely be amazed to discover how nearly the entirety of our Catholic and Protestant ways of "doing church" come more from Roman paganism than they do from the teachings of the apostles and practices of the church in the first 3 centuries.

Blessings!

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